Re: Modern History and the Brzhona, etc.

[Padraic Brown <pbrown@nova.umuc.edu>]

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Frank George Valoczy wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Padraic Brown wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Frank George Valoczy wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> <snip my bit>
> > > 
> > 
> > This makes for an interesting turn of events -- having to contend with a
> > USSR who _doesn't_ have to contend with the USA.  There was a protracted
> > discussion a while back on the What-If history group regarding a no USA /
> > USSR only scenario.  I believe the ultimate concensus was that the USSR
> > could survive for several decades beyond the 1980s, but would eventually
> > collapse under its own ineffeciencies.  It would probably have to contend
> > with China (if it goes Communist *there*), though.
> > 
> 
> This sounds good.  As for China, before we can say it went communist, I'd
> have to ask: did the US have any influence over that?  What I mean is,
> would China have gone communist if the US didn't exist?

I know China *here* was a mess in the 20s and 30s; Japan, the USA and GB
had invaded (jointly or severally over the years) with the end result of
large scale Japanese occupation, war reparations to the USA and GB.  The
Republic (aka (now) as Taiwan) was not too strong, and revolutionary
forces were able to mobilise with Soviet assistance.

Some things to make note of, respectiong China.  *There* there is no USA
to goad Japan into rapid industrialisation during the 19th cen.  They
probably would do so eventually, but undoubtedly not at the Critical
Moment.  Therefore, no Manchukuo puppet kingdom.  There is no USA to
invade China; there is no GB to invade China (no Hong Kong, etc.).  I
don't know what sort of interests Kemr / Saxony / the FK have in east
Asia...could they or would they muck around over there?  With no
invasions, Imperial China would probably survive at least until the 30s,
perhaps longer (depends on if reform was in the air);  perhaps sliding
directly into Communism at that time. 

If China remained uninvaded, it probably would still end up Communist; but
likely later than *here*.  There would also be no China/Taiwan Question to
debate over, so a main stickling point is thereby avoided.

I also think Chinese Communism will collapse under its own weight at some
point.  Of course, that's an other kettle of fish.

> 
> > We probably wouldn't have a NATO per se; it would probably be something
> > more along the lines of a Western Alliance, i.e. NATO minus the USA and
> > Canada.
> > 
> 
> That's how I figured it...sort of like the EU as a military alliance.

Right.  There _was_ and economic alliance of sorts in the 19th cen.,
perhaps that could in some way be built upon.

> 
> > Respecting the name Brzhona -- *here*, the Gauls were in Britany first,
> > then Mr Caesar came and they all liked his toga so much that they became
> > Gallo-Romans.  Then the Franks moved in and compelled everyone to cease
> > eating cows and pigs and learn how to have cuisine with beef and porc,
> > thus becomming French.  Somewhen in that mix, some Britons left Britain,
> > thus ceasing to be British, but upon landing in France, refused to eat
> > cuisine (and thus become French) and they became Brezhoneg instead.
> > 
> > *There*, if the Brzhona are native Gauls, then their name would probably
> > have to change, unless they associated themselves with the immigrant
> > Britons before moving off to the Low Countries.  Otherwise, their place of
> > origin could change, and they would be one of the emigrant British groups
> > fleeing the Perditious Saxon. 
> 
> Well, if it fits, I'd go with the second option, because I like the sound
> of "Brzhonegh".

I thought that might be the case!  There were emmigrations from Komrow
(Kernow in particular) during the Irish Troubles, and as a result of the
Saxon Troubles.  The earliest migration would probably come at a time
before the complete Romanisation of that part of the country or from the
West (historically the least Romanised part of the country), resulting in
a small Celtic speaking population in Britanny.  [This satisfies my desire
(and I think Ray's desire as well) to have some surviving Brythonic Celtic
in the wide world.] The latter migrations came some time afterward, and
from more Romanised folk, resulting in the Breotow kingdoms in Britany. 
The Celtic speakers, sadly, being so few in number must eventually be
absorbed into the Romance populations (but not before leaving us some
written testament to their existence; and therefore fodder for some
conlinguist in Castreleon to ponder the possibilities of Cymraeg
survival).  One of these Romance populations could very well contain the
protoBrzhona.  From here they could part ways with their Breotow cousins
and muddle on over to the Low Countries.

Padraic.

> 
> -------ferke
> Ferenc Gy. Valoczy
> 
>                       Es to pilni'gi noliedzu!
> 
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