Re: CELT: Spoken Conlangs

[Padraic Brown <agricola@WAM.UMD.EDU>]

Jowan Cowan don-yscreus:

> And Rosta wrote:
>
> > p.s. (a) What are the *English* names for Kemr, Kernu, Brithenig, etc.?
>
> The English continue to use "Welsh" for the Comro as they have
> since invading the island, but they have managed to learn to
> call the country "Cambria".  Things in, of, or from it,
> including the English-speaking minority, are "Cambrians", or "those
> bloody Cambrians" more likely.
>
> I suspect the language is called "Britannic" by the learned, and "that
> gibberish" by the vulgar.

I think that probably covers it all.  I don't mean to come off all
pedantic of a sudden, but when speaking of languages, you should
capitalise the name.  Therefore: "That Gibberish".  ;^)

>
> I can't even guess about Kernu, but probably something fairly
> close to "Cornwall" (what is the etymology of the "-wall" part
> anyway?).
>
> > (b) Could someone remind me what has happened to Welsh in Kemr?
>
> It's extinct.  The Brithenig page,
> http://www.earthlight.co.nz/users/andrew/brithenig/brithenig.html#kemr
> refers to it simply as "Old Celtic".

Technically, Welsh (as Sally and the rest would recognise it) probably
never existed, as Brithenig has been developing from the fourth century or
before and has overwhelmed the Brittish languages in the southern parts of
the island.  It could be maintained that it may survive somewhere if
1)some Britons migrated to Armorica or elsewhere before becoming Comro; 2)
if the Isle of Man were anciently British speaking and if whatever caused
the Irish to colonise were removed; 3) some remnants may live in southern
Scotland; 4) if the Picts were British speakers and whatever caused them
and the Scots to unite were removed.  To be sure, the lion's share of
those who would be Welsh in real life are not Welsh here.

Of these, I think 1 would be the most likely.  Of course, the mass
migrations were prevented because the Comro were able to defend more land
from the Saxon Depravities than in our timeline.

According to Sellar and Yeatman's utterly exhaustive (and famous) history
of Britain, the Welsh, or Britons "...were compelled to wash themselves of
the woad, to learn Latin, become RC, and act, in every respect, Comro;
thus ceasing to be Welsh or Briton. This was a Good Thing as the Comro
ceased to all divided in three parts..."

>
> > But is there a country/province of Wales?
>
> Almost certainly not.  Speaking without authority, I wouldn't
> be surprised if the historic Celtic names of the Welsh kingdoms
> prevail.

There are several Provinces, but I think they are yet somewhat amorphous.
I'm aware of only two names: the Province called Duneint, in southern
Cambria; and the eastern marches, whose name I've quite forgotten, but is
quite famous for all the border castles and fortifications (vid. Saxon
Depravities).

>
> > And to what is the English word _Welsh_
> > applied?
>
> Caws bobi; the Comro; refusing to pay one's just debts.

Oi!  Let's have some respect for the Caws Bobi, here!

>
> --
> John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@ccil.org
>         You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
>         You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
>                 Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (FW 16.5)
>
Padraic.