Re: Ancient History.

[Padraic Brown <pbrown@nova.umuc.edu>]

On Thu, 2 Jul 1998, Andrew Smith wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Padraic Brown wrote:
> 
> > I've been working on a list of Kernow kings and how they fit in with the
> > Cambrian kings.  There're also some questions I've been thinking about.
> >
> Let me toss in some observations of my own.  Useful material this! 
> > 
> > Kernow				Cambria (Pagus/Powys until Cambrian unity)
> > 
> Powys appears to be derived from Pagensis, according to The Age of Arthur;
> The Country contrasted with more urban South Wales.  In Welsh *here* -age-
> -> ae -> owy; Welsh (Brithenig) *there* remains closer to the Romance norm
> (a/a: -> a rather than a: ->aU/o)  To this day the Chomro still refer to
> the mountainous heartland of north Cambria as ill Paes, the Country.

Pagensis, I think, is _ultimately_ derived from pagus, though.  In any
event, they're the same root.  Ill Paes, I think, is a long skinny
province, as parts of northeastern Kernow are called il Pays.

> 
> > Tutivalos Senos			Ambrosius Aurelianus Vlatos
> > (470-500)			(460-480)  Ousted the Vortigerns, invited
> > 				the Votadini to immigrate to
> > 				Weneta/Gwynedd, under Cunodagos
> > 				(Cunedda).
> I thought the latin version of Gwynedd was Wenedotia.  In Brithenig it is
> Gwenedd.  (According to the Age of Arther Cunedda is the origin of the
> name Kenneth - not a name I associate with warlords myself)

I haven't seen Wenedotia, but it looks alright to me.  Weneta was given in
one of my books; the other names are either given or back-derived (by me). 
I hadn't the desire to back-derive all the names (some were rather
opaque), so there're some actual Welsh names mixt in with the Brittonic.
I assume Cune <- cunos (like so many others) and dda <- dagos; therefore
'good dog'.  (My other option was Cunoaeduos 'ardent hound'; better for a
warrior, but I think probably not right etymologically.)

> 
> As for Cumbria and Rheged I felt the Ribble was a good place to draw a
> boundery between the north and south.  Originally I thought the boundery
> would go up to Luguvallium but the transpennine littoral looked too
> tenuous

I have no problem with the borders as they stand, really.  I would like to
know who's there!  Are they Comro, etc.?  Part of Scotland, England
(shudder), independent, semi-independent, etc.?

> to me to be successfully held on to.  (A contingent boundary between the

I think that's more or less what happened *here*.  The connections were
maintained between Rheged and Wales by sea.

> Welsh and the Cornovii in the south also troubled me but the survival of a
> brythonic language in Cornwall made it seem possible.)  My guess is the
> Cumbrians moved into orbit around the powerbase in Strathclyde until such
> time as that was absorbed into Scotland.  Then it became part of the
> territory that was conquered by William Rufus as happened *here*.
> (Correct me if I am wrong.)
> 
> The House of Padarn, the ruling dynasty, is named after its earliest
> ancestor, Paternus, who was one of the kings of the Votadini established
> circa 370-380.  Among his immediate successors are Cunedda and
> Maglocunos, and later the Llewellyns (has anyone got an etimology for
> that name?)

I don't have anything for Votadini before Cunodagos (and nothing later
than Cunodulo).  It seems Paternos was a generation or three before
Cunodagos.  [This was the last Votadini king *here*.]

I think we have in this thread some nice possible additions for the Name
List.

Padraic.

>  
> - andrew.
> 
> Andrew Smith                                  <hobbit@earthlight.co.nz>
> 
> MAN, despite his artistic pretensions, his sophistication, and his many
> accomplishments; still owes his existence to a six-inch layer of topsoil
> and the fact that it rains.
> 							   - Anonymous
> 
>