Re: CELT: Re: Flags (Re: Spoken Conlangs)

[Andrew Smith <hobbit@MAIL.EARTHLIGHT.CO.NZ>]

On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, And Rosta wrote:

> [I realize that I must be recapitulating issues treated off-list.]
>
> Given that England, Scotland, Ireland flags are crosses associated
> with Sts George, Andrew & Patrick, would the Kemrese one be a cross
> associated with St David? Is there such a cross? Or is St David of
> lesser cultural significance in Kemr than in our local Wales?
>

The following is a quote from our off-list discussion which touched on the
issue of the crosses incorporated on the Union Jack.  As I have not asked
the correspondent's permission to forward this I do not name him here so
as not to violate his privacy:

"Probably really only two national crosses: the red + on white background
of
St George for England & the white X on blue background of St Andrew for
Scotland (neither saints having any direct connexion with either country;
the original English patron was St Edward the Confessor.  He was ousted
when returning crusaders brought the cult of St George, popular among
eastern Christians, to this country).

(I was led to believe that prior to the conquest the patron saint of the
English was Saint Gregory the Great who was indirectly responsible for
their Christianization - andrew.)

"The original Union Flag had only these two crosses & was adopted after
the
union of England & Scotland in 1707.

"The so-called cross of St Patrick, the red X on white background, is not
acknowledged as such by the Irish and was added after the Union with
Ireland in 1801.  Although that union ceased in 1922, the cross remains.

"Wales, of course, has no representation on the Union Jack since Henry
VIII
had formally incorporated it within England in 1536.  It wasn't until this
century that it was once again formally re-instated as a separate
principality within the United Kingdom.

"Before you decide ..., I think the present Welsh Standard
should not be forgotten.  It was raised by Henry Tudor when he landed in
Wales to march against Richard III.  But the red dragon has a longer
ancestory, going back to the standards of the Roman legions.  The red
dragon fluttered behind the standards as they marched.  The dragon
survived
because the Romanized Celts, resisting the Saxon invaders, considered
themselves _Romans_."

> BTW, are leeks & daffodils significant in Kemr?
>
Leeks are an old symbol on the Brythonic Celts with an unknown origin,
they are significant to the Chomro.  I understand the use of daffodils as
a national symbol is a modern innovation.  My interim judgment: leeks yes;
daffodils maybe

- andrew.

Andrew Smith                                  <hobbit@earthlight.co.nz>
Life is short, so am I...