Re: Humorous Brithenig translation project.

[Padraic Brown <pbrown@nova.umuc.edu>]

On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Andrew Smith wrote:

> > > While I liked the joke, and I'm intending on putting a version on the
> > > homepage, I would be remiss if I didn't point out a few things.
> > 
> > Feel free to alter what is wrong.
> > 
> > Indeed.  Got it from St. Martin's, Kepstow Bridge.
> Did you know that according to Wordcraft ceapstow is an OE word meaning
> marketplace?

I've intentionally left some place names in English (Kepstow and Kepstow
Bridge being two of them) until a decent British form comes along.  I
don't have many sources for older names, and what I have is somewhat
spotty.  My best is The Domesday Book, which very nicely covers England,
and especially in Cornwall and Devon gives older names, but is somewhat
blank when it comes to Wales. 

> 
> > What words in particular?  'ill grew' is the only obvious nonstandard word
> > I could see, being Paesan.
> > 
> rhen is sufficent in standard Brithenig to mark a noun as "not", extra
> words are redundant.  In ever/never statements it is replaced with nonc.

Yes, I recall that from my previous exercise.  I believe we ended up
saying that rhen...nonc was either archaic, biblical or dialect (in this
case, Paesan).

> 
> the articles lla and llo always cause mutations.
[mumblegrumble]
> 
> I looked through your neologisms, and considered them against etymology,
> cognates and existing words, my conclusions:
> 
> "The Romance Languages" gives *presbyter surviving into Welsh as pryfder,
> which I suspect is now obsolete because I can't find it in the
> dictionaries.  Although the original word I gave you was prestr, I think
> I'm going to post it as prefder.
> 
> Modern Brithenig /v/ derives from VL /m/, /b/ and only from VL /w/ in very
> exceptional circumstances.  I think narfus would be more likely spelled
> narws, cf gw, serw.

OK, but i didn't see it in the Rules anywhere.

> 
> Brithenig collapsed /-e:r/ with /-er/, although I could accept that seguir
> is Paesan, standard has segher.

I guess this'n can squeak through.  Especially since segher was _already_
in the dictionary!  Besides, Paesan keeps the -kw- sounds in such places.

> 
> Sugestiwn, monseniwr and comannfent are acceptable and match up with what
> I found.  I found abostol and nonostann among my papers (I should pay more
> attention to what I find written down on paper!)

Indeed!

> 
> Welsh as "to ask a blessing" for Eng. to say grace; and one version of
> Cornish has "to speak of" for to refer to, and uses cosulya, to advise,
> for to recommend (which survives in Brithenig as cosilar).

OK

> 
> Maria cun lla Ceresa, I guess again as Paesan, standard would say Mair
> cun lla Geres.
> 
> English is the only Romance cognate that uses "contest" as a nominative,
> French, Spanish and Italian all have words based on "concursus", I tend to
> favour Brithenig following what continental romance languages do rather
> than what English does.  I think it has a more exotic feel to me, and
> *here* the Welsh resisted borrowings from English for a long time.

Well, that's what I get for relying on Merkin Spanish -- it's no better
than Merkin English! el contesto doesn't really work, and upon looking in
an actual dictionary concurso is the correct form.  It were probably best
for B to follow suit on this one. 

> 
> Muinisaf meaning the least I guess is another Paesan influence because
> this would mean very small in standard Brithenig in contrast to ill muin,
> the least.  The same must go for comodd because the standard language has
> si(g), from sicut, surviving to mean "as", although co does mean how.

Comodd is definately nonstandard, being influenced from farther south and
east.

> 
> That's my conclusions.  I hope I didn't jump to too many wrong ones,
> Conclusions is a very dull place and hard to get back from (Phantom
> Tollbooth fan!)  I would like to see the etymology for ill grew, because
> I'm considering adding it to the lexicon.

ill grew is Paesan in nature and is derived ultimately from Greek through
Latin gry, meaning scraps and crumbs.  In Paesan, like in Br. y falls in
with i usually; but in a few instances it falls in with u.  In Paesan
spelling, a final -u sound gets written -ew.  The meaning has shifted
somewhat from leftover crumbs to the actual grub itself.  Gry doesn't
survive in Kernu, where grew means ponderous.  There, grub is il porccubs; 
where "porccubs" originally meant "for the pigs", and is a dative plural
(porcciv, being the correct form) that has become a new noun in its own
right. 

Padraic.