Re: Rromei-Geldyghei lyngvei (Roman-Celtic langs)

[Frank George Valoczy <valoczy@VCN.BC.CA>]

On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Padraic Brown wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Frank George Valoczy wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Welcome from one of the other RomanoCeltic conlangers here!  Andrew
> > > Smith's Britheig and (my) Kernu, a Brithenig dialect, have consonant
> > > mutation of various sorts.  We haven't yet entirely worked out where the
> > > Brithenig stress should fall, but word final seems a likely contender.
> > > Your language looks pretty neat!  Tell us Celticonlangers more about it!
> > > Perhaps we could share ideas, experiences and the like.
> >
> > Thanks!  Re consonant mutation, my main thing is that I want to make it
> > different from Breton, but I want to keep it Celtic.
> > I kept the Breton stress pattern (next from last syllable) in Brzhonegh,
> > partly because it's simpler than random stress (as in my Slavic lang,
> > Vranian).
>
> It might be difficult to have different "kinds" of mutation than the
> Celtic languages (eg., Breton), but Brzhonegh could certainly find new and
> dastardly places for the mutations to happen. ;^)

Snip Mutation stuff...

That's something I'll have to explore; it does add interest, much like
consonant gradation in Finnic.

>
> Brithenig and Kernu have Indicative, Subjunctive, Imperative, Conditional
> and Infinitive for moods.  Kernu is a bit more conservative (and a bit
> more Celtic) with its verbal terminations, as you could see above.  Kernu
> retains the -b- future of the 1st conjugation, the -s- perfect from
> several places, the -b- imperfect (though mutated to -v-), a few
> reduplicative verbs and a few -r passives.

Verbwise I haven't done very much; I've only roughly sketched out present
indicative (Latin forms).

>
> Our pronouns seem to be mostly, if not entirely, Latin.  Kernu, at least,
> has accentuated and unaccentuated forms of the pronouns for emphasis.
>

Personal pronouns:

        1ps     2       3m      3f      3n      1pl     2       3
Nom     me      te      en      dhi     dhu     nw      ghvw    wnt
Acc     am      azh     dhen    dhel    dhen    dhol    ogh     o
Gen     am      azh     dhen    dhol    dhen    dhol    ogh     o
Dat     va      dha     egh     esh     egh     dhon    ogh     o
Abl     va      dha     egh     esh     egh     dhon    ogh     o
Loc     am      azh     dhen    dhol    dhen    dhol    ogh     o

Interrogative pronouns are /bwv/ "who (sg.)", /bws/ "who (pl.)", /brzh/
"what (sg.)", /brzhws/ "what (pl.)", /bwrw/ "which one" and /bzwrr/
"which".


> >
> > I haven't decided what to do with adjectives yet; Both Breton and Latin
> > adjectives agree with the noun; but I'm bored with that from Vranian and
> > Neo-Dalmatian; undeclining adjectives like Finnish and Hungarian are
> > intrinsically boring too.  Suggestions?
>
> Well, you may certainly do with your adjectives as you see fit. :-)  If
> you're trying for a "likely" Romano-Celtic tongue (the overall goal of the
> Brithenig Bunch), then you most likely will settle for boring Neolatin
> adjectives. In Brithenig (and in Kernu), the adjectives of fem. nouns take
> the mutation of the noun.  Kernu has a very few irregular adjectives that
> differentiate masculine from feminine: il varru beccos / la gwena becca.
>

Yes, you're probably right; I do want to keep it as "likely" as possible.

> >
> > Numbers:  I kept the Breton numbers, with a vigesimal system like French,
> > so I guess that'll make it base-20; 18 is "three sixes".
>
> I kept a number of Celtic forms, and judging from Andrew's Brithenig Page,
> he did as well.  Brithenig seems to have some base 15 (?) forms, and also
> base 20:
>
>         15 kindig, 16 yn e ghindig, 17 dew e ghindig
>         20 gweint, 30 deg e weint, 40 dew weint

These are simply pemdhek/gvedhek/seidhek
but ugwd/trrenta/davgwd [2 20's]

>
> Kernu seems to retain a couple more of these base 15 forms, as well as
> many base twenty forms:
>
>         15 cyntheck, 16 yenicyntheck, 17 dawicyntheck, 18 trawicyntheck,
>                 19 kyedwaricyntheck
>         20 wyghaint, 30 dechiwyghaint, 40 dawhwyghaint
>
> There are a few "irregularities" reminiscent of your "three sixes": 18
> traw-ys-sey; 27 traw-ys-naw; etc.  None of which are "standard".
>
> >
> > Breton has "inflecting prepositions".  Do Brithenig and Kemru?  I'm still
> > figuring those out, whether to include it or not; I'm leaning towards the
> > 'not'.
>
> As far as I know, Brithenig has lost these.  Kernu has kept a few: in,
> de/di, do, a and co may all inflect.  We call it Conjugated Prepositions:
>
>         s.              pl.
>         1. dom          don
>         2. dos          daw
>         3.m. da         da
>         3.f. da         da
>         3.n. dond       da
>
> The first person of such forms causes nasalisation, as does the 3rd. masc.
> The 3rd fem. causes aspiration.
>
> By far, do and co are the most frequently used forms.  Do is used with
> aver (to have/there is) to indicate possession, and the inflected do tells
> us who owns what: dom ay yn ngu (to me there is a dog); da ngu le me ay yn
> ngenamh (my dog has an old bone); com-wheni-ty comic (with me come [with
> me with]).
>
> Does Brzhonegh have them?

I haven't decided yet, but I'm thinking that as Brzhonegh has retained
quite a few Brezhoneg forms, I'll probably keep these as well.

> > Diplomatic Relations between Gemr, Komrow and Brzhona? =)
>
> A distinct possibility indeed, if the rumour buzzing around Sessiwn Kemres
> be true. ;^)  By the way, Gemr and Komrow are the same thing, but in
> different dialects.  Kemr is Cambria in Brithenig while Komrow is Kemr in
> Kernu.  Anyway, it's all sorted out on the map!  The Kemres speak
> Brithenig, and the Kernow speak Kernu.

Thanks for clearing that up.

>
> Also, if the Brzhona and the Kemr find themselves inhabiting the same
> universe, the Brzhona will find some very nice neighbours who speak
> Breotu, a dialect of Kernu spoken by Kernow colonists in Bretten Beq
> (Brittany) after the 11th century, or so.  Legend has it that there may
> also be a few Armorican speakers (descended from 5th cen. Dumnonian
> Brythonic emmigrees, during the Ravagement of the Saxons) there as well,
> but no one seems to be able to confirm this.
>

Well that sounds very interesting. :)

> I expect we'd also have to figure out how the Brzhona came to be where
> they are and how.
>

Indeed.  That's something I don't quite know yet.

-------ferke
Ferenc Gy. Valoczy

personal page: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/7482/
railways page: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3976/
conlang page: http://members.tripod.com/~tuonela/

-Oblast je morda nesimpaticna, a edina nesmrtne pot miru in stabilizacije.
(Laibach)