Re: Mobile Welsh (was: Mormonides)

["Raymond A. Brown" <raybrown@macline.co.uk>]

At 21:50 28/1/98, Padraic Brown wrote:
>On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Raymond A. Brown wrote:
[.....]
>>
>> I was talking about the legendary voyage of the Welsh Prince Madog, son of
>> Owain Gwynedd, who is supposed to have sailed from Aber-Cerrig-Gwynion near
>> Rhos-on-Sea, with two ships in 1170 and to have landed in Mobile Bay,
>> Alabama.  I've checked, and the Indian tribe is the Mandans who became
>> extinct, I believe, in the mid-19th century.  The Mandans, in fact, were
>> held to be the descendants of Madog's followers.
>
>I've never heard this legend.  Yet another Discovery Myth.  Anyway, I
>can't find anything here on the Mandans, except that they are Siouans who
>now live in chilly North Dakota.

Now you remind me, there must still be Mandans about - I saw some on the TV
so long ago. Some Welsh speakers actually went over to N.Dakota to look
them out.  Apparently there are a few words which are the same or similar
in both languages!  But I strongly suspect this is mere coincident & if one
looks hard it's likely you can find two or three "common words" among the
most unlikely pairs of languages.

>If his highness had made it to the
>Mississippi, he would have found any number of rather high civilisations
>in the area at this time, especially further north.  I can't guarantee
>that the Mandans were in the area at that time, though.  Can you give a
>reference for Madog's story?

The story first appears in a 15th century Welsh poem - I don't recall its
title, I'm afraid.  I'll try to find out more.

The legend is also told by Southy in his poem 'Madoc' (medieval Welsh
spelling where intervocalic & final {c} = /g/, and {g} = /N/).  The legend
of Madog is still widely known among the modern Welsh, and actually
believed to be historic by some.

Ray.