Re: Religion in Kemr and Elsewhere

[Padraic Brown <agricola@wam.umd.edu>]

Yikes!  Twould seem I've missed something quite interesting today.  I was
rather enjoying the Flag Discussion, even the "crowded version".  I think,
perhaps, St. David should stand in the middle with outstretched arms,
hands full of birdseed; the Eagle can sit on one hand, apeckin' away, and
the Dove can sit on the other (also peckin' away).  We shouldn't leave the
Kernu or the Cumbrians out of it, so perhaps SS. Perran, Petroc and Asaph
can all ride on the dragon.  Perhaps we could throw in a white stag or a
fierce red-eyed boar for good effect.

Anyway, I've missed out on whatever sparked all this discussion, so I may
be all wet on some of this.  That said, I've some comments on it all, and
the thin-skinned are hereby forewarned.  As one of the List's RCs (though
undoubtedly not the one mentioned), there's no need at all to apologise
for opinions and beliefs with respect to the Church.  Threre's bits I
don't hold with, but on the whole she's as good a Way as any.  I'll be the
first to defend the good bits; but I don't mind knocking about the
blockheaded bits, either. 

Speaking as one (perhaps the only one) of the List's Merkins, I also know
about "offense".  I can't speak for any other contry, but the prevailing
climate here in the US is that we can't say _anything_ for fear of
"offending" someone (or even more likely, mobs of someones).  If one says
the wrong thing to the wrong person or at the wrong time one may soon find
onesself embroiled in scandalous court proceedings and plastered all over
the news.  Honestly, I'm quite fed up with it; but am glad and relieved
when someone has the visceral fortitude to speak his mind and then stick
with it.  Bravo.

With respect to the R.C.C., I quite agree with the "capitulate to the
suzerainty" bit.  That is 100% accurate.  In my opinion, the Pope, and
indeed the whole Church would like nothing more than to see all of
Christendom "capitulate".  The Triple Crown and St.  Peter's Seat aren't
empty symbols -- they are signs of ultimate authority, and, undoubtedly,
continuing reminders of the want of this authority in reality.

I'm not sure wheather you mean, by "uniate", specifically Catholic but
nonroman, or Christian but not RC or everything else.  In any case, this
pressure is placed on all, but especially on other Christian groups.  A
quick perusal of the Catechism under "Ecumenism" will reveal the actual
intent: 100% reunification (and thereby the "capitulation" to the
"suzerainty").

(I guess I'm done ranting w/r to the RCC)  I understand Ray's position
quite well about ignoring religion altogether; since it can become a
rather dicey situation.  On the other hand, language does not exist in a
vacuum.  Like it or not, Brithenig is now a real language.  As such, it
exists within the web of culture; which like it or not includes religion.
To create a more perfect Brithenig we must understand the people who speak
it, and their culture and perspective.  We can no more ignore religion
than we can those ubiquitious double l's.  We just must keep our own
perspective straight -- the history and religion of the Kemr, for all its
similarity, is not ours.  Whatever may be said of Catholicism in this
Otherworld, it has no bearing on the Catholicism of this world.  Our
Catholicism is what it is.  Their's is what it is.  Who knows -- perhaps
in this Otherworld some delicately balanced mechanism was upset in such a
way that there is a nearly compleatly unrecognisable C.C. there.  All
sorts of other historical ramifications will undoubtedly be discovered,
this will certainly not be the least.

With respect to the "warmer reception of women of power" bit, I think it
very likely that, given Kemr's peculiar culture, the church there would or
could be different, even if slightly.  I think a good, if imperfect,
analogy would be the position of homosexuals in the US w/r to churches.
Recently, all sorts of churches have been stumbling all over themselves in
the rush to welcome gays and even allow them to be ministers, marry _and_
be open about their sexuality.  (Of course, the CC was not one of them.)
The point, of course, is that culture affects religion.

Kudos to whoever came up with "the exclusivity of Christ within the
economy of Salvation" (Peter, I think)!  I think even a Theologian would
consider that a triple scoop with extra chocolate syrup, nuts and
sparkles.  Where or Earth did you pick up that?  Even the Catechism
dosen't specifically define all that lot.

I guess I've jabbered enough for now.  Isn't it curious the way it's
religion (and sex) that get people talking like nothing else (except
perhaps sports)?

Padraic.

On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Peter C. Skye wrote:

> I am the first to apologize for unintended slights.  Therefore, to those who
> found offense in my remarks on Roman Catholicism I say now that I have the
> greatest respect for those who wrestle with their Church and choose
> nevertheless to remain in the fold.  I have no respect, however,  for
> people who
> follow anyone or anything blindly or by habit.
> 
> I know the words "capitulate" and "suzerainty" are loaded, but they are
> accurate and I will not retract them.   When the Church acts in the world as a
> political power -- the Holy Roman Empire, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the
> Papal States -- it stands to be judged by the canons of history.  And
> historically, the Church has pressured and continues to pressure non-Latin
> Rite
> (so called "uniate") bodies to conform to Roman practices.  If this isn't
> capitulating to another's suzerainty, I don't know what is.
> 
> As for Ray's concern that I am retrofitting the Protestant Reformation into
> the
> Church of Kemr, I firmly believe that, given the warmer reception afforded to
> women of power in Celtic lands, the Church of Kemr could have evolved
> differently.  Also, the dogma of the exclusivity of Christ has had its
> challengers within the Church throughout it's history.  I'd like to think that
> those who weren't burnt at the stake found refuge within Kemr.
> 
> Peter
> 
> P.S.  Before I was initiated into the Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids, and
> long before I thought up the Gorsedd of Latter-Day Druids -- pace Mormons
> in our
> midst -- I was an active Catholic layperson. 
> 
> I still miss my man...
>   but my aim is getting better. 
>